turtledovefandomcom-20200216-history
Talk:Gideon
Jonathan suggests deletion. In defense of keeping it, I will say it shows Rhoodie's piety which gives Lee a reason to trust him even though his initial impression was poor. The specific chapter of the bible also has a bit of significances since it reflects the poor state of the Confederate cause so might be used rather than the bible in general. On the other hand, this subsection referencing Gideon could be merged with the Bible article. ML4E (talk) 19:59, February 14, 2016 (UTC) :This feels more like a literary reference, since it's a quick note about what Rhoodie is reading. On the other hand, as ML4E says, Gideon's story does give some idea of the state of things (with the caveat that if a reader isn't familiar with the Book of Judges or the story of Gideon, they won't appreciate the parallel in GotS, either). TR (talk) 20:37, February 14, 2016 (UTC) ::Shouldn't just go into the Biblical allusions list? The only reason for it to be an actual article would be if characters discussed it extensively or if its contents changed from OTL as with the Alternate Acts in Gunpowder Empire.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 20:39, February 14, 2016 (UTC) :::I'm inclined to agree with Jonathan here. Turtle Fan (talk) 22:20, February 14, 2016 (UTC) :Biblical allusions is probably best then. ML4E (talk) 22:40, February 16, 2016 (UTC) :With the new Greek Mythology Referred To in Turtledove's Work page, a similar one for Biblical figures could be created starting with this and Haman.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 22:13, March 6, 2016 (UTC) ::Also Moses. We should add a line for Methuselah, too. I'd argue that David and Goliath should be left alone; their importance to OD is significant. Turtle Fan (talk) 00:06, March 7, 2016 (UTC) :::Moses, David and Goliath can probably stand as articles and go onto such a page. We've done that with the musical and literary pages. TR (talk) 00:37, March 7, 2016 (UTC) ::::I agree we can keep the articles and add to an allusions list. ML4E (talk) 19:34, March 7, 2016 (UTC) :::Tabitas and Lord Goliath are important as articles because the OD versions are radically different from the OTL versions. Moses is the subject of a line in "Before the Beginning" which is significant because it alters historical knowledge within the story context. Jesus appears as a character in some stories and is referenced in others as having attributes he never had in OTL. Ditto both for Peter, and the latter item for John and Paul. But Gideon and Haman are simply referenced as they are in the OTL Bible, and while their references are significant, they don't really impact the story. There are probably other frequently used allusions just like them in HT's oeuvre.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 04:07, March 7, 2016 (UTC) ::::I'm not sure Moses is so significant. I don't object to keeping him as an article, but as I understand it (and I've not read BtB so I rely on info provided here by those who have) he's just one name on a long, long list of past figures whom ghoulish audiences find interesting to watch. Turtle Fan (talk) 05:49, March 7, 2016 (UTC) :::::The list in BtB with Moses in it is of biographies who were revealed by the time-viewer to have been drastically different than the commonly accepted versions, although the story provides no details.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 08:14, March 7, 2016 (UTC) ::::::If it offers no details, can you really say it "alters historical knowledge within the context of the story"? Sounds like an oversell. Turtle Fan (talk) 13:44, March 7, 2016 (UTC) ::::::As I recall, the story (through the narrator) makes the claim without giving details. The change in knowledge doesn't seem to affect religious belief so I don't think it would be as drastic as the revelation that Jesus was a vampire, for instance. ML4E (talk) 19:34, March 7, 2016 (UTC) Revisiting Revisiting this, there's a huge OTL section, followed by an in-story section which doesn't really have anything to do with Gideon. He's only mentioned by HT in passing for two lines, and has no effect on the plot. Once there gets to be a Biblical References in Turtledove's Work section, this can go there. As it is, this gets a disproportionate article which "bigger" Biblical figures ref'd in HT don't. For example, the reference to King Solomon in ItPoME has some effect on the plot, but he isn't given an article here.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 18:43, April 16, 2016 (UTC) :It looks like we were all on board with the biblical references page. TR (talk) 18:51, April 16, 2016 (UTC) :I found a way to incorporate the point about Gideon seamlessly in Rhoodie's own bio, making this page unnecessary.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 17:49, May 1, 2016 (UTC) ::Ah no, I don't think you accomplished that at all. My reading of the GotS was that Rhoodie was pious and was reading the bible for his own sake and not a plot to "endear himself to Lee". Read the Gideon subsection here. Its much different from what you wrote. ::Further, this bit of trivia, along with all the other ones floating around, tends to bloat articles with minor sidebars. Much better to have separate articles for them. I do agree this article is far too big for its purpose and a biblical references page is the way to go. ML4E (talk) 17:59, May 1, 2016 (UTC)